Interview With Nuno Rogerio of SIC
Noticias
Interview
Victoria
Nuland
Assistant Secretary, Bureau of European and
Eurasian Affairs
Lisbon, Portugal
April 28,
2014
________________________________________
Question:
Secretary Nuland, welcome to the show, welcome to Portugal.
First question on the issue of Ukraine. Do you believe that
the United States and Europe have different positions on
Ukraine. Are we in sort of a war between US and Europe
because of Ukraine?
Assistant Secretary
Nuland: Well, first, Nuno, let me just say how
great it is to be back in Portugal and at this very
important moment in our relationship and for Portugal.
Congratulations on the 40th anniversary of the Carnation
Revolution. I think Portugal has an enormous amount to teach
Ukraine and frankly to teach Russia. You made the transition
to democracy without a drop of blood being spilled and that
is what the people of Ukraine want for themselves. I don’t
think that the United States and Europe have different
positions. In fact, today we both said to Russia that we are
dissatisfied with Russia’s implementation of the Geneva
Agreement of less than two weeks ago. That we do not see the
commitment that they promised to make to help stabilize
Ukraine and, on the contrary, they are playing a negative,
destabilizing role and, therefore, there have to be costs
and we both imposed fresh sanctions
today.
Question: You know what the
Russians are saying is that, although they understand what
they call the struggle of Eastern parts of Ukraine. They are
not present militarily so the people that are there are
grass roots people, probably some Cossacks, probably some
paramilitary groups but not Russia as a state. Would you
agree with that statement?
Assistant Secretary
Nuland: That is complete garbage. We have high
confidence in our assessment and, frankly, it is Europe’s
assessment as well that Russia is playing a concrete role in
organizing, funding, assisting, arming these protests and is
playing an extremely destabilizing and dangerous role inside
Ukraine, let alone the threatening moves that it is making
with its 40,000 troops around Ukraine’s borders. Ten
battalions of which went right up to the borders just a
couple of days ago.
Question: Yeah, but
that is the forces that are on the border. I am saying the
forces that are inside of east Ukraine.
Assistant
Secretary Nuland: And I said Russia is playing a
concrete role. It has its own intelligence forces inside
Ukraine who are organizing, coordinating, arming and funding
the destabilization in the east. There are obviously some
Ukrainians participating as well, but they are not the best
actors inside eastern Ukraine and, in fact, if you look at
the polling – Ukrainian polling, American polling, and
European polling – that polling indicates that less than
18% of Ukrainians want anything to do with what Russia is
proposing.
Question: I know you have
discussed this topic with Christiane Amanpour, among others,
but who is calling the shots in Moscow? Do you see this as a
rational product of Russian foreign policy? You are a
consummate diplomat, you are a professional diplomat. You
have seen Russia in several shapes and forms. Is this a
decision of a man or of a system? Do you see any rationality
behind this Russian position?
Assistant Secretary
Nuland: I believe, through my own experience, that
you have to listen to what leaders say and believe what they
say. We have a President in Russia who is talking about his
greatest regret is the fall of the Soviet Union, who is
invoking the period of Catherine the Great, one of the
biggest expanders of the Russian empire, who is talking
about “novo Russia” a time when half of Ukraine was part
of Russia so you have to take him seriously when he says
that is his aspiration.
Question: So
people would argue that lots of problems that Ukraine is
facing now are also due to their own incompetence, division,
corruption, infiltration by other forces and surely also the
fact that they are demoralized and maybe weakened at this
moment, would you agree that?
Assistant Secretary
Nuland: Absolutely, that is what Maidan was about.
Maidan was about first the young people of Ukraine, but then
old people and business people saying we want to turn the
page on an era of corruption, on an era of bad government,
on an era of a few rich people stealing the wealth of the
country. We want to live in a clean, democratic country.
That is what they are fighting for and that is what the U.S.
and Europe are supporting. And that is what Russia is trying
to deny them.
Question: As you know,
Ukrainian Special Forces are hesitant to enter in to town
centers because they do not want to arrest civilians, who
are being used, apparently, as human shields, and so the
operation is very difficult for the Ukrainians. If the
operation doesn’t work, if the status quo continues, if
everything continues to be occupied in those cities, the
public buildings continue to be occupied, what is there to
be done besides sanctions?
Assistant Secretary
Nuland: Well, first to say, as you said, that the
Ukrainians and their security services have shown enormous
restraint in the face of the kind of terrorist, aggressive,
vicious tactics that are being undertaken by the militants,
and by the pro-Russian separatists. As you know, just this
weekend, eight international monitors, OSCE monitors, taken
hostage and taken to the dungeons of Slavyansk, now this
awful epicenter of everything that is going wrong in
Ukraine. Obviously, if Russia doesn’t change course. If it
doesn’t allow Ukraine the breathing space to make its own
choices, it is going to have to continue to cost and those
sanctions and that isolation will just escalate. But, at the
same time, the U.S. and Europe are intent, President Obama
is intent, on leaving the door open for diplomacy, if
Russian will change course. That is what our meeting in
Geneva was about. But Russia has to make a choice. It can be
a good neighbor or it can face
isolation.
Question: Final thing because
I know you are running out of time. One of the questions
that Ukraine has to solve is that…
Assistant
Secretary Nuland: What about something about
Portugal? Are we going to talk about Portugal at
all?
Question: Yes, we can say just one
thing but just tell me one thing. Ukraine is very dependent,
as Portugal is, on energy that comes from abroad. They
don’t produce enough energy by themselves; we also feel
that in another domain. How can it be solved for them to be
less dependent on Russia?
Assistant Secretary
Nuland: Well, first of all, you are absolutely
right. This is one of the great difficulties that Ukraine
faces, that other countries in Europe face, the great
dependence on Russian energy. That is why we are working so
hard as a transatlantic community, to diversify supply, to
diversify types of energy. In the Ukraine context, the U.S.
and Europe are working together: John Kerry, Cathy Ashton,
Commissioner Oettinger were together two weeks ago to look
at reverse flow, to move gas from Poland and Hungary and
Slovakia back into Ukraine and we’re being relatively
successful at that. But, you know, Ukraine is also exploring
alternatives like shale gas and, if that works out, Ukraine
will be a very rich country, very
soon.
Question: Finally, about
Portugal.
Assistant Secretary Nuland:
Yes.
Question: How would you describe the
present state of relations? We do not appear to have any
storm between Portugal and the United States except for the
questions of Lajes that gathered lots of opinions recently.
Do you think there is a problem between Portugal and the
United States because of the Azores
base?
Assistant Secretary Nuland: We are
great, strong allies. We so appreciate the transatlantic
spirit and the global commitment of Portugal. What I wanted
to say today is how proud we are of Portugal and the
Portuguese people. How you have weathered these three years
of difficulty. The intense reforms that you have undertaken
and we have enormous confidence in Portugal’s future and
what we want is for Portugal, and the Portuguese people, to
have confidence in their future. Which is why I was here
today talking with young entrepreneurs, the next generation,
talking about the transatlantic trade and investment
partnership that we are going to do that is going to bring
jobs and growth on both sides of the Atlantic. We want to
see Portugal continue to be that transatlantic engine of
growth, the connection between US and Europe that is going
to make us all stronger and more prosperous. With regard to
Lajes, we have a long, historic security relationship in the
Azores. It is time now to broaden and deepen that
relationship so it is also about economic opportunity, it is
about protecting the environment, it is about tourism. We
will continue to have a security relationship but let’s do
more than that in the Azores.
Question:
Have a safe flight.
Assistant Secretary
Nuland: Thank you
Nuno.
ENDS
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